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Offline overlord  
#61 Posted : 08 April 2022 02:51:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
I will read shortly and let 'overlord' finish.

Ooh I will never finish with mocking your "unitless engineering" charlatanism.
I will continue to insult your "the SI that is not a native Engineering System" statement.
Offline marks2c  
#62 Posted : 08 April 2022 03:27:09(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
You asked for an example for me. This one is thermodynamic and chemical so should be in your area of expertise:

I will read shortly and let 'overlord' finish.
Specify what it is all about: size valve, orifice plate
May be temperature control, volume/mas change ...
... setup a PID control algorithm ?


No.

Please demonstrate the correctness of your contention by showing that SI-derived units cannot be used to show:
1) energy being added to the gas tank at the service station and
2) paying for it at the counter (ie price per energy).

Thank you.
Offline Jean Giraud  
#63 Posted : 08 April 2022 16:00:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
This one is thermodynamic and chemical

Just that stuff c/w project abstract and data.
Offline overlord  
#64 Posted : 08 April 2022 16:08:30(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
Please demonstrate the correctness of your contention

He won't, he can't.
As you have said, he is "the flat earther".
He claims ludicrous assertions and expect us to unprove that nonsense.
Offline marks2c  
#65 Posted : 08 April 2022 22:18:39(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
This one is thermodynamic and chemical

Just that stuff c/w project abstract and data.


Unfortunately, that isn't evidence supporting your assertion.

And it isn't the extraordinary evidence needed for the extraordinary claim.

It is a pity, I was going to ask if we could share the Nobel prize for countering the underpinning basis for all measurement in the scientific and engineering communities.

Ah well, back to trying to work out how to solve this puzzle...

Edited by user 09 April 2022 02:38:05(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

Offline Jean Giraud  
#66 Posted : 09 April 2022 02:41:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
Ah well, back to trying to work out how to solve this puzzle...

No puzzle in there wrt SI as a sub-processor!

Inst_Valve Sizing CV series.sm (7kb) downloaded 8 time(s).
Offline overlord  
#67 Posted : 09 April 2022 04:21:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
No puzzle in there wrt SI as a sub-processor!

Even your example is proof of your illogical approach.
Don't invent the wheel everytime, again, just use SI units.

2022-04-09_04-06.png
Offline Razonar  
#68 Posted : 09 April 2022 05:54:39(UTC)
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Ok. Here is an excellent example of why units should be used in engineering calculations:

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
In that example of 100's Orifice Plate, all process data
are given by the Chemical Engineering team in Engineering Units.
The Consulting Instrumentation Engineer do two things:
1. best find "ΔP[Pa] ... User XTR" to minimize the models XTR's.
2. calculate the the bore diameter for all 100's plate.
On the turnkey day of the multi billions $ Plant, SI is not invited.

Orifice Plate.PNG


Let's look at how calculations turn out if units are used.

img1.jpg

Reynolds_Wrong_Calculus.sm (10kb) downloaded 12 time(s).

It's very easy to make pretty serious mistakes by not using units.

Best regards.
Alvaro.
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Offline ElSid  
#69 Posted : 02 May 2022 18:26:45(UTC)
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Wow, ongoing battle since MathCAD collab days. I for one, love units. let's keep it civil. By enlarge, Jean's process is correct, although many times, I have seen Overlord modify the response in a way to satiate "UNITS" (BTW, thank you). Razonar, your example is fantastic is visually showing why the rest of us like units. The "wrong" Reynolds number HAS units ... which it shouldn't. Now we have a visual to look for the problem.
Have a blessed day y'all!
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Offline Jean Giraud  
#70 Posted : 02 May 2022 19:46:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ElSid Go to Quoted Post
By enlarge, Jean's process is correct,

Hello Elsid, we are old roosters in the barn ... Jean.
Offline overlord  
#71 Posted : 02 May 2022 20:50:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ElSid Go to Quoted Post
By enlarge, Jean's process is correct.

That's the issue, it is not correct.
His calculations have fundamental mistakes.
Offline marks2c  
#72 Posted : 02 May 2022 21:31:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: overlord Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ElSid Go to Quoted Post
By enlarge, Jean's process is correct.

That's the issue, it is not correct.
His calculations have fundamental mistakes.

In the interest of straight communication:

I really like that Jean is keen to help and share.

Some behaviours I'd like to see self moderated are:
  • Repeatedly saying that SI units are unsuitable for process control. This misunderstanding may now be sorted, but the offending posts are still there.
  • Misusing units by overloading (ie m:=1) because of the item above. Again sorted, but the misusing posts remain.
  • Prolific off-topic posting, (easy to do, but so is starting an new thread).
Offline Jean Giraud  
#73 Posted : 03 May 2022 14:51:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
I really like that Jean is keen to help and share.

Thanks Mark for your Meritas.
Read attentively post #4 from Martin ... Samples, Solve Utilities Productive.
In my times, Michelin build two plants in Nova Scotia.
They are not SI, not even Engineering Units ... in Michelin Units.
Looking at their success World wide, it credits Michelin Units.
Still flying horizontal knots @ altitude [m] @ Geopotential [°C].
Delight yourself of this BIPM ... as given make it productive.
Take care Newzild ... Jean.

BIPM.PNG
Offline overlord  
#74 Posted : 03 May 2022 18:07:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Read attentively post #4 from Martin ... Samples, Solve Utilities Productive.

I have read it and concluded you are bending what Martin said.

Originally Posted by: mkraska Go to Quoted Post
The correct way would have been to substitute the values including their units. Substituting just the numbers is a frequently seen type of laziness.
So it is not an example for clean handling of physical quantities. Many engineering books show this kind of disrespect to the equal sign for intermediate calculations Here we have second level disrespect by not even giving the unit of the result.

What Martin said was about book writers whom not using SI units in their published calculations.
It was not about SI units are wrong or not sufficient.
Martin's complain was writers,author and publishers laziness of not writing SI units.

Your ideology is completely different however, it faulty from start.
Your not using units is not out of laziness.
You deliberately oppose using units in calculations.
I believe anybody including Martin would not condone ditching units.

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
In my times, Michelin build two plants in Nova Scotia.
They are not SI, not even Engineering Units ... in Michelin Units.
Looking at their success World wide, it credits Michelin Units.

I really want to see a standard paper for those invented Michelin units, used as substitute of SI units.
Or English Engineering Units. That's right, it is the proper name of what you like to use.
It is not Engineering Units, you misuse and alter its name to be proved right.

I doubt the very existence of Michelin Units, used as a replacement for SI, Imperial or English Unit systems.
Couldn't find anywhere on internet. However I am not saying they can't exist, I just want to see a proof.
You made a lot literally untrue statements in the past, and you are still making and going to make as it seems.
I have a sentiment to doubt everything you post.

Edited by user 03 May 2022 18:23:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Jean Giraud  
#75 Posted : 03 May 2022 20:03:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: overlord Go to Quoted Post
I doubt the very existence of Michelin Units

Good luck visiting Michelin telling them how stupid they are
to keep their secrets by not using SI.
Not even with your Grand Crusading Vocabulary.
Michelin ... time, quantities, temperature, cooking gradients ... etc.
Michelin Process Control Algorithms...
BTW, have you calculated the Orifice Plate bore diameter ?
Offline overlord  
#76 Posted : 03 May 2022 20:22:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Good luck visiting Michelin telling them how stupid they are
to keep their secrets by not using SI.

Do not alter the words people use or nitty pick a portion of sentence.
What did I said?

Originally Posted by: overlord Go to Quoted Post
I am not saying they can't exist, I just want to see a proof.
I doubt the very existence of Michelin Units, used as a replacement for SI, Imperial or English Unit systems.

I didn't say they aren't or can't use a complete different system.
I have said I don't believe until I see they completely use an other measurement system.
I don't want to see their unit system fully uncovered.
I only want to see just a mere statement written anywhere which them using a different measurement system.

You claim Michelin invented units and using them.
When asked for proof you simply say they are using in secret.
Do NASA secretly hide the truth of flat earth too?
(this is satire by the way, explaining it in case you can't understand)

And there is an another issue, even they use another unit system, they still use UNITS.
You jocosely propagate complete ditching of units in calculations.

You are the person who claimed there is no mathematical meaning of (-1)^x.
You claimed maple is successor of maxima. You claimed no one can find a curve function.
You still use dynamic viscosity in your functions. You insist units are useless on a daily basis.
You have claimed so many ridiculous things I can't even stop laughing while remembering them.

Your words coming out of your mouth has no respectful meaning.
Most of time you simply lie, decontextualise or don't know what you say.
It is completely normal for us to suspect your gibberish statements.

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
BTW, have you calculated the Orifice Plate bore diameter ?

Why would I correct your full of error sheets? Do your own job.
BTW, did you corrected your kW/hr MISTAKE?

Jean, there is no scientific meaning of kW/hr as said to you before. (6 years ago to be precise)

Originally Posted by: mikekaganski Go to Quoted Post
kW/hr is non-existent (physically nonsensical) unit of power. Power is measured in kW, and work is measured in kW*hr.

Edited by user 03 May 2022 20:56:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Razonar  
#77 Posted : 03 May 2022 21:34:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post

Delight yourself of this BIPM ... as given make it productive.

BIPM.PNG


Of course we can. Your problem is that you identify here

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
This document recapitulates Pt100, Ge, T,J
T, J data from NBS Monograph 125
...
Inst_Type Pt100, Ge, T, J Copy.sm (538kb) downloaded 29 time(s).


Wr with a resistence, which is not. It is a ratio of resistances. And how you assume that all units are equal to one, and with which you make the reader lose any idea of ​​the dimensions with which you work. That is why you get to calibrate in that document a PT100 (which should have a resistance of 100 ohms at 0 Celsius) with values ​​between 0.5 and 1.5 ohms, which is completely absurd, if the units you handle were correct.

That is, the number Wr is dimensionless, so there is no problem raising it to 1/6. And if it had dimensions, it would only be necessary to divide it by its units, as is done in practice.

That is to say, another document with serious conceptual and result errors simply for not using units. As margin note, you asume also that because for Germanium is used with mV for sub-cryogenics measurements you think that for Platinum is the same, but for that the unit is mA (for a 4 to 20 mA control loop) because the power that dissipates could be much greater.

Best regards.
Alvaro.
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Offline marks2c  
#78 Posted : 03 May 2022 21:41:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
They are not SI, not even Engineering Units ... in Michelin Units.


Jean, let's finish this conversation.

I put it to you that Michelin units (like imperial units which are now defined in SI units) are just an alias for SI units.

This would be easy to check. A a good process control engineer who knows SMath could do the required units mapping in a few minutes.

I think you are that process engineer.

BTW: it is likely that Michelin units are an obfuscation to make it hard for competitors to reverse engineer the process.

It is guaranteed that Michelin don't maintain a set of 'Michelin Standards'. Their calibration will trace back to SI units. There are no 'new and mysterious' units of measurement that are not counted for within SI units.

Edited by user 04 May 2022 00:08:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Jean Giraud  
#79 Posted : 04 May 2022 02:31:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
There are no 'new and mysterious' units of measurement that are not counted for within SI units.

Agreed: no big deal to associate polygon area/perimeter UNITS with the data set.
You can probably do same for arc length from data.
Arc length from function is not so obvious unless user defined.
Don't worry for Michelin proprietary recipes and control algorithms.
Over 60 years ago they offered my a job from passing their 3 days exam.
I preferred Aeronautics. Take care Newzild ... Jean.

Offline Jean Giraud  
#80 Posted : 04 May 2022 03:04:38(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Razonar Go to Quoted Post
a PT100 (which should have a resistance of 100 ohms at 0 Celsius)

Pt100 is simply a designation from EIT90 with Ω as given 1 @ 0.01 °C.
The instrument maintenance crew calibrates the XTR's reading from
expensive secondary standard lab equipment accordingly to BIPM.
Platinum wire is not infinitely ductible ... 100 times smaller cross area ?
Of same cross area now 100 times longer ?
Don't worry, those things work fine for so long.
Cheers ... Jean.
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