Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login. New Registrations are disabled.

Notification

Icon
Error

14 Pages«<121314
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline mkraska  
#261 Posted : 15 August 2023 20:11:34(UTC)
mkraska


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,036
Germany

Was thanked: 1168 time(s) in 747 post(s)
Davide, would it be possible to enable the use of custom units as variable names to solve for in FindRoot()?

The application case is statics of rigid bodies.

The vector sum of all forces is zero and the sum of moments about some reference point is zero. This is then solved for the support reactions.

This usually involves cross products. One of the vectors is typically a vector normalized by it's length and multiplied by an unknown scalar quantity (for which we later want to solve).

I've made quite some experiments on how to get the expressions right. These options seem to work:

- Mark the unknowns including any given quantities as units. This seems to flag them as scalars for SMath simplification.
- Use a custom cross product and Maxima. Then no custom units are required. This is actually a request for a better cross product in SMath.
- Mark the unknowns and any given quantities as units and use Maxima for simplification. This is actually used in 1-2.sm

Only the first version works without Maxima.
So if FindRoot() would accept unit names for unknowns then users could solve such problems without Maxima.

1-2.sm (126kb) downloaded 16 time(s).
2023-08-15 18_27_47-SMath Solver - [Vektorprodukt.sm_].png
Vektorprodukt.sm (194kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
Martin Kraska

Pre-configured portable distribution of SMath Studio: https://smath.com/wiki/SMath_with_Plugins.ashx
Offline Razonar  
#262 Posted : 16 August 2023 08:44:29(UTC)
Razonar


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,478
Uruguay

Was thanked: 931 time(s) in 591 post(s)
Originally Posted by: mkraska Go to Quoted Post
... The application case is statics of rigid bodies. ...


Hope that the attached helps. FindRoots (and roots) without maxima.

1-2.pdf (582kb) downloaded 29 time(s).
1-2.sm (139kb) downloaded 24 time(s).

Best regards.
Alvaro.

thanks 3 users thanked Razonar for this useful post.
on 16/08/2023(UTC),  on 16/08/2023(UTC),  on 18/08/2023(UTC)
Offline mkraska  
#263 Posted : 27 August 2023 18:44:14(UTC)
mkraska


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,036
Germany

Was thanked: 1168 time(s) in 747 post(s)
Hi Alvaro your proposal to use vectorize() for products of undefined variables with vectors is recomended by Andrey as well. But here is a simplified example of what can happen using this approach:

Unit vector.png
Unit vector.sm (9kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

In both cases, vectorization is dangerous as it doesn't fail in an obvious way but rather silently produces wrong results.

Martin
Martin Kraska

Pre-configured portable distribution of SMath Studio: https://smath.com/wiki/SMath_with_Plugins.ashx
thanks 1 user thanked mkraska for this useful post.
on 28/08/2023(UTC)
Offline Razonar  
#264 Posted : 28 August 2023 08:28:46(UTC)
Razonar


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,478
Uruguay

Was thanked: 931 time(s) in 591 post(s)
Hi Martin. You're right, vectorization in SMath, just like it did in mathcad, can easily produce results that aren't what one would expect, not to mention the one you mentioned earlier that varied depending on whether it was assigned to a variable or not. And as you very well say, it is not a recommended practice to try to explain the erratic behavior of a software in class, even more so if there is really no way to deduce what is due to it. And although perhaps an explanation could be found for that unit vector version, for the other one I don't really find sense. So I think it's a good idea that you could work with units to imply scalars. It would be necessary to add that the sum of these 'units' does not report an error so that its application is broader.

BTW, a workaround, but although I understand (I guess) why your example gives a "wrong" result, I'm not quite sure why this version gives a "correct" one. Maybe it's because the vector is already "spent" on the addition, but the rules are not clear as to why the addition "arrives" before the vectorization. That is to say, if I were to present this in class, assuming it was ethical for me to try to explain it, I would probably be in troubles if someone asked the slightest detail why that result is obtained.

Clipboard01.png

Best regards.
Alvaro.

Edited by user 28 August 2023 08:41:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users thanked Razonar for this useful post.
on 28/08/2023(UTC),  on 28/08/2023(UTC)
Offline mkraska  
#265 Posted : 28 August 2023 10:14:00(UTC)
mkraska


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,036
Germany

Was thanked: 1168 time(s) in 747 post(s)
Hi Alvaro,

Your post supports my belief that there is no safe alternative to the scalarity assumption for undefined variables. Fortunately, units are assumed to be scalars and we can demonstrate how nice and smooth things work with this assumption.

Unfortunately, precious features like FindRoot() currently won't work with this. So I thought it was worth a bit of discussion to find out if there is really no safe alternative.

Perhaps Davide can enable handling of unit-like unknowns.

Yet there are disadvantages of the units approach
- you might run into "units don't match" (so far this was no problem in my applications)
- you have to avoid pre-defined names, ending up with text indices everywhere
- the borderline between where it is essential and where normal variables would do is uncertain

So for now I'd state these textbook rules for symbolic vector operations:
- Do not use vectorize.
- If an expected simplification fails, mark scalar variables as units.

It would probably be overkill to generally forbid ordinary non-unit variables.

Martin
Martin Kraska

Pre-configured portable distribution of SMath Studio: https://smath.com/wiki/SMath_with_Plugins.ashx
thanks 1 user thanked mkraska for this useful post.
on 28/08/2023(UTC)
Offline mkraska  
#266 Posted : 16 August 2024 11:00:13(UTC)
mkraska


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,036
Germany

Was thanked: 1168 time(s) in 747 post(s)
It seems that there is a bug in Jacobian() from Nonlinear Solvers.

The application is to convert a system of equations to matrix form.

The built-in Jacob() function and Maxima's jacobian() work as expected, once you provide the correct type of arguments.

Jacobian() seems to not obey the order of entries in the variables vector (using the ordering returned by Unknowns() ).

Worksheet18.png
Worksheet18.sm (21kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
Martin Kraska

Pre-configured portable distribution of SMath Studio: https://smath.com/wiki/SMath_with_Plugins.ashx
thanks 1 user thanked mkraska for this useful post.
on 18/08/2024(UTC)
Offline Davide Carpi  
#267 Posted : 18 August 2024 07:33:06(UTC)
Davide Carpi


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered, Advanced Member
Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,713
Man
Italy
Location: Italy

Was thanked: 1378 time(s) in 902 post(s)
Originally Posted by: mkraska Go to Quoted Post
It seems that there is a bug in Jacobian() from Nonlinear Solvers.

The application is to convert a system of equations to matrix form.

The built-in Jacob() function and Maxima's jacobian() work as expected, once you provide the correct type of arguments.

Jacobian() seems to not obey the order of entries in the variables vector (using the ordering returned by Unknowns() ).


Odd, I'll check it, thank you Martin.
If you like my plugins consider to support SMath Studio buying a plan; to offer me a coffee: paypal.me/dcprojects
Users browsing this topic
14 Pages«<121314
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.