Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

5 Pages<12345>
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Jean Giraud  
#41 Posted : 06 April 2022 02:34:03(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
All that freak for the bird.
QA will sanity T/hr from the document ... not m³/s.
My document complies ISO-5167, yours NOT.
Generally, QA is from Veritas Bureau by the applicable standard(s).
If I can help the Originator, I will but exclusively.
Offline overlord  
#42 Posted : 06 April 2022 04:28:59(UTC)
overlord


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 829
Turkey

Was thanked: 290 time(s) in 204 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
My document complies ISO-5167, yours NOT.

Actually, your immature document doesn't conform with ISO 5617:2003.
I looked into the standards document, it doesn't contain your magic numbers.
Mass flow is written with W also, Q is for flow rate. Your variable names are not conform with standard too.
In every way, you are completely wrong about your claims.
And your document is not compatible with corresponding ISO standard.

Click to expand

Edited by user 06 April 2022 06:45:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Jean Giraud  
#43 Posted : 06 April 2022 15:46:59(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Your ISO is piece of crap ... useless, NOT formulated.
Does not include Fa correction, neither magic number.
Fa is correction factor between plate material/duct material.
Damned important 316/Derakane.

ISO 5167.PNG

Offline Jean Giraud  
#44 Posted : 06 April 2022 16:00:11(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
... once done, sanity check.

ISO5167 Sanity Check.PNG
Offline overlord  
#45 Posted : 06 April 2022 16:33:51(UTC)
overlord


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 829
Turkey

Was thanked: 290 time(s) in 204 post(s)
You use 1980 version of ISO standard and call 2003 version crap?
Your mind is uterly deluded, I would never want to be a collegue with someone like you.
Appearently you occupy a job without deserving it.
You somehow get the job in the past because of your age.
And now you are trying to defend your shitty calculations shamelessly.

Edited by user 08 April 2022 14:20:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Jean Giraud  
#46 Posted : 06 April 2022 18:25:41(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
You have no competence in that stuff.
Your ISO 5167 is not the working version.
Order the hard copy, check if you can do the example
as given by the Process Team.
Instrumentation Engineer greatly assist the piping Designers.
After my valve sizing 2", the original 6" vanadium pipe 100m
can be reduced to 3" pipe depending upon availability & $ kW/hr.
at the cost of vanadium !!!
They paid me Gold Bridge for results.
Offline overlord  
#47 Posted : 06 April 2022 18:53:22(UTC)
overlord


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 829
Turkey

Was thanked: 290 time(s) in 204 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
You have no competence in that stuff.

Says the man who can't work with units.
I already have the standard document, any calculation made according to latest 2003 ISO can easily surpass your primitive example.
You lack the abilities of a proper engineer. As I have said, you did made your career when human resources are limited.
With your lack of knowledge and false claims you wouldn't get a job nowadays.

Edited by user 08 April 2022 05:38:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Jean Giraud  
#48 Posted : 06 April 2022 21:33:22(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Simply, do the example above or one of your choice.
Offline overlord  
#49 Posted : 06 April 2022 21:50:49(UTC)
overlord


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 829
Turkey

Was thanked: 290 time(s) in 204 post(s)
Why would I do your calculations "properly" without getting paid?
Do your own job and correct them, according to latest standards.
And stop spreading to new SMath users about your unitless bullshit!
Offline Jean Giraud  
#50 Posted : 07 April 2022 02:40:07(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Supplementary details ...
The orifice plates are associated with 3 documents for traceability.
1. The orifice bore is signed by the calculators and chemical data provider.
The chemical data provider confirms the process design conditions.
2. A manufacturing drawing details each plate for the manufacturer ...
drain/vent hole, size, orientation, instrument number
3. An in-situ installation drawing c/w wiring connections.
Lastly, on plant startup, an independent QA team certifies to client.
Offline CBG  
#51 Posted : 07 April 2022 05:11:08(UTC)
CBG


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 14/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 289

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 54 post(s)
Hello Jean
Hello Overlord

In this link: https://www.hydraucalc.com/downloads/
you can download a free program for the calculation of orifice plates
in accordance with the current ISO 5167-2:2003 standard


Place your bets and be happy.

HydrauCalc_2021a.png



Best Regards

Carlos
thanks 1 user thanked CBG for this useful post.
on 07/04/2022(UTC)
Offline marks2c  
#52 Posted : 07 April 2022 11:27:05(UTC)
marks2c


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 01/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 47
New Zealand
Location: Wellington

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Thank you for your replies and your work in doing so.

My question related to SI units and process control. It was not about tool use or pissing competitions.

Regarding the calculations: they should all work in any unit system interchangeably (with appropriately scaled constants).

Jean: my reading of the posts so far is SI unit inconsistency with process control has not been identified. I see nothing here that invalidates the use of SI units in process control.

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Regarding compliance with the ISO standard: There is zero chance that using the formulas with the appropriate SI units in place is non-compliant.

Not showing units or using them incorrectly (ms and m/s are not the some thing) would cause me concern as a reviewer or customer.

I'm thinking that claiming 'SI units are not suitable for process control' is a bit like claiming the earth is flat. Jean: the burden of evidence is on you to provide: not overloard.

Carl Sagan: 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

Edited by user 07 April 2022 11:50:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users thanked marks2c for this useful post.
on 07/04/2022(UTC),  on 08/04/2022(UTC)
Offline Jean Giraud  
#53 Posted : 07 April 2022 16:19:25(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
My question related to SI units and process control. It was not about tool use or pissing competitions.

The pissing competition is between the process data design team
and the fluid properties published data in cause they refer.
AND the SI that is not a native Engineering System.
No sweat to reconciliate ml/s in Pharmaceutics as well in Paper Plant.
Give an illustrative example for someone to consider.
Cheers ... Jean.
Offline marks2c  
#54 Posted : 07 April 2022 19:00:20(UTC)
marks2c


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 01/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 47
New Zealand
Location: Wellington

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post

...AND the SI that is not a native Engineering System.


Actually, yes it is. But it is just one set of units (the best-maintained set, and now the one used to define the imperial units).

Please put up your evidence. Just saying this does not make it so.

All the inputs into the formulas have units, as do the formula's outputs (noting that 'unitless' scaling factors and the like exist).

Get the units wrong in an engineering answer = get the answer wrong (plane fall out of the sky, satellite spin kind of thing)...

Offline Jean Giraud  
#55 Posted : 07 April 2022 20:18:10(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
Please put up your evidence

P1, t, Q ... from Process Team
Δ ... from Jean best choice XTR
D ... from Pipe Design Team
μ, ρ, k ... find yourself
Calculate orifice bore diameter, flange type.
Go from pretended ISO and SI

Orifice Plate SI.PNG

Offline marks2c  
#56 Posted : 07 April 2022 21:03:56(UTC)
marks2c


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 01/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 47
New Zealand
Location: Wellington

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
OK, I think I get it.

Can you see that all the units in your example are defined as SI, but represented in other units?

You asked for an example for me. This one is thermodynamic and chemical so should be in your area of expertise:

When filling up the car do you care about the units of measurement? Not really (all we care about is the Joules added - or Ergblubbertons) and the cost (dont really care about the financial units either as they are easily converted).

But we all care heaps about the formula the dispensing pump uses. And it uses SI-based units for measurement.

Please prove this wrong or QED.

Edited by user 07 April 2022 22:14:21(UTC)  | Reason: Clarified: financial units are not SI units

Offline Razonar  
#57 Posted : 07 April 2022 21:54:45(UTC)
Razonar


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,012
Uruguay

Was thanked: 560 time(s) in 364 post(s)
It is a fairly common mistake to think that to go from the reading of a mass flow meter to a volumetric flow, it is enough to know the density at the temperature and pressure of the reading.

First let's see how it is handled by a software, for example Hysys. It does not have a single volumetric flow, but also introduces a "Std Liq Vol Flow"

img1.jpg

The density to use for mass to volume conversion is stored in the critical properties information of the compound.

img2.jpg

Information about how the conversion is done in the program is on pages 55-60 of this manual:

Pages from SimBasis appendix A property packages.pdf (281kb) downloaded 10 time(s).

For the conversion of readings in real instruments it is necessary to go to the information of the manufacturer of the instrument. Some examples on how to convert standard or actual mass to volumetric flows readings units appear in this article, highly recommended for those who don't know how to use units in process plant instrument readings.

gnan1402.pdf (1,254kb) downloaded 9 time(s).

In conclusion, the only thing I see are well-managed units in all the showed calculations.

Best regards.
Alvaro.
Offline marks2c  
#58 Posted : 07 April 2022 22:23:36(UTC)
marks2c


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 01/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 47
New Zealand
Location: Wellington

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Razonar Go to Quoted Post
It is a fairly common mistake to think that to go from the reading of a mass flow meter to a volumetric flow, it is enough to know the density at the temperature and pressure of the reading.


Thanks Alvaro.

Mass flow is bog-standard for people to understand nowadays (IC engine management has made it so commonly studied), and the units are exactly correct (ie what they say they are).

The good thing about using units correctly on the inputs to a formula is that if the output isn't correct units-wise then something needs to be fixed.

Smacking a Unit:=1 onto it is not at all helpful (ie can be better done as a simple comment without the units operator-overloading declaration).
Offline overlord  
#59 Posted : 07 April 2022 23:38:42(UTC)
overlord


Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 829
Turkey

Was thanked: 290 time(s) in 204 post(s)
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
Smacking a Unit:=1 onto it is not at all helpful

Exactly, that is what Jean can't comprehend.

And fortunately this is not a pissing contest.
Sorry for my words, but Jean is shitting all the forum and we are trying to clean it.
Jean is spamming topics with enigmatic/rude replies or non-related worksheets.
He degrade other peoples works, examples, requests, questions, etc.
Meanwhile he insist on calculations without units, SI is not sufficient, visa versa.
Which is the most absurd thing that an engineer or scientist could say.
That is why I am, and going to mock his incognitive behavior.
And his primitive engineering capabilities.

Maybe you wouldn't know, but he already shitted mathcad forums 10 years ago.
Everybody was laughing him back then, he left there and now he is polluting SMath forum.
Sorry again for ruining your topic, but somebody has to stand this madness.

Edited by user 08 April 2022 14:17:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 1 user thanked overlord for this useful post.
on 08/04/2022(UTC)
Offline Jean Giraud  
#60 Posted : 08 April 2022 02:41:57(UTC)
Jean Giraud

Rank: Guest

Groups: Registered
Joined: 04/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,187
Canada

Was thanked: 910 time(s) in 738 post(s)
Originally Posted by: marks2c Go to Quoted Post
You asked for an example for me. This one is thermodynamic and chemical so should be in your area of expertise:

I will read shortly and let 'overlord' finish.
Specify what it is all about: size valve, orifice plate
May be temperature control, volume/mas change ...
... setup a PID control algorithm ?
Users browsing this topic
5 Pages<12345>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.